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all your studies? atrocities? this is the real world dan and there are bad people. bad people do bad things in the name of politics, religion, war and "it's a family matter".
I don't know how you were raised, you say in a relgious home, maybe a cult. however you grew up and met the real world. Good for you. I don't think it's fair to put all religions or religious leaders in the same basket. the philosophys & actions of Osama Bin Laden were all in the name of Allah. However a majority of Muslims are peaceful and just want to live a good life. No matter what, we all need to be more tolerant of each other, our politics and our religions. Because you choose to dismiss religion, all religions, a majority of the world believes in something outside themselves. 33% of the world is christian, the other 65% is made up of many other great religions. this has been going on for thousands of years. You really should not dismiss the opinions of anyone just because you have studied. what are your studies in comparrison to those many theologians? Good vs evil is a reality since the beginning of time. Hitler was religious, so was the Pope.

This is much funner than the attacks at SP/HA.

Char/CG As for having strong convictions I respect that. Now if I venture a guess, that those convictions are faith based? Now stay with me here.
I was actually raised in a very religous house. but through my studies, I have found so much horror done in the name of g-d. not always ours, but more often than not. Now I am sure that these people who performed these attrocities in his name were a little suprised when they didn't show up at the gates, because they had miread his teachings. (get my drift here?) I am sure the ones who got there were the ones who weren't shouting at the top of their lungs their Hallalujahs, but the ones who by their actions proved worthy. there is so much more in that book about helping the needy and downtrodden then anything else, including hate for a specific groups (Gays for instance) I am sure it is said somewhere to live and let live or turn the other cheek or something to the effect of if that is their choice, live with it.

When we pass laws to exclude people which has been the method of those people who got the suprise above, we who stand in line and catch the fever with them are just as guilty.

That is my main problem with organized religion, it takes away individual thought and compasion and replaces it with the Church teaching of the day, and believe me it changes often.

Sorry gotta go and Watch Bill Maher. try it you'll like it.

Again great conversing, and I am not going to spell check cause I gotta Go.

Good night

danw....by the way...in chardonnay's defense she is hardly a bible thumper....she has strong convictions.while all of us may not always agree....i think we can all at least accept the idea that having strong convictions is sure better than having none at all, right?

Danw....these comments are upside down just because that's the way someone[who shall remain un-named until i can hunt him down and kill him...he's related, so i have to be very secretive about it...don't tell anyone] designed it. it's annoying as hell i agree.LOL.
but thanks for saying that i wrote so much good stuff...you flatterer you.LOL.
actually i am not against euthanasia at all. i am worried about the law of unintended consequences kicking in though.[as in the terri schindler case] if it were a perfect world this is what i think should happen. let's say someone has a disease that is terminal and painful...as alot of cancers are for instance. why should they die while in agony or being drugged to oblivion??? i think you should be able to have all your friends and family around you if that's what you want, in a place you want, and then after you say goodbye....someone puts you to sleep. that's the way it should be.and the upside of this is people, when they know that pain relief is at hand, can endure alot more discomfort with less actual pain. the mind is a pretty powerful thing, HMM? so they would actually have a longer quality of life , life.
and i'm going to shock you here.....but i don't hold the puritanical views on sex even though i must admit that my ancestors were actually puritans.full disclosure.LOL. but really, since we know that most serial killers come from overly religious homes[where religion is as twisted as hell...not normal religion] and have 'mommy' issues....sex can be used as a weapon. we make too big a deal out of it in one way here in the U.S. it's not a big deal...it's a natural part of life. period.
on the other hand, sex isn't like taking a shower either. you don't catch aids from taking a shower.you can't get your heart broken or your reputation ruined by taking a shower.but we can't legislate morality. we have to make it the 'right' thing to do in people's minds.....and that would take alot more honest dicussion about it than we have going on in this country now.thanks to both the far right and the far left.
so abstinance only teaching is not only stupid it's useless....and dangerous.we need to teach that and birth control. every kind of birth control.
i have never known even one woman that had an abortion because she was raped...and i never saw women lurking around in alleys looking for a creep with a coat hanger. i really think those are urban myths. you know...planned parenthood isn't doing a very good job when they are doing all those abortions. where's the planning? why with all the birth control in the world is there even one unplanned pregnancy?the whole myth that it isn't a baby is stupid. when people start playing word games like that i know they are lying. just like they lied in the beginning to get it legalized in the first place. now the doctor that lied is blabbing. that's the one thing you can always count on....eventually someone will blab.
why are they lying if there is nothing wrong with it? why not tell the whole truth? because when you don't tell the whole truth you are STEALING someone's CHOICE away from them. you can't make honest decisions that you can live with on faulty info. it's wrong. for the people that are pro-choice.....they sure only want it to be their version. and i don't mean the graphic pictures. i mean the medical, factual reality of it.if they did that abortion would be a thing of the past fast.....and that's what bothers me. planned parenthood is big business...they don't want their little money maker gone.
i have never been a single issue voter...i ,personally, think people like that are morons. but that's just me.
god...you're right...this upside down thing is tedious...i now have scroller's cramp.lol

Geez Dan, For a Ten Commandments comment I made on another blog I am now a thumper. Oh, maybe because I am also on the side of the pro-lifers that defended Terri Schiavo's life. I am against euthanasia and against the culture of Death. The same culture George Felos promotes. I think it is wrong to assume someone else "wouldn't want to live this way" especially when it is not in writing. Are you anti death penalty?

Char
The 10 Commandments post had to do with what you had posted someewhere else, where you were willing to trade Gay rights for Posting the 10 Commandments. I am not sure it's a fair trade, but I'll bring it up if you think YOU have the power to get that approved.
Is that the part of my post you are questioning?

Sorry about the Thumper comment, but I have debated with you before, and find it hard to debate with people who believe in only one source for their information. even though it is a good book, it is just a book.

Are you saying that each judge must go through an entire new trial for every appeal? I am not sure how that would be feasable? Help me understand what you are trying to say here?

I know we don't care for the messenger, but here is the list of the 19 (R) appointed judges and the 18 (D) appointed .
http://kingubu.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/28/74330/9007

dan- what did your response have to do with my comment? nothing! why do you assume I am a thumper and why would you feel the need to labels and name calling? If I was a "thumper" why would my opinion be any less valid than that of, oh lets say, an atheist/yours?

CG;
Is you Blog upside down for a reason? You wrote so much good stuff, that i have to keep scrolling back up to respond.

1. Again when can we let peoples bodies die? How do we define death? You are very clear on the definition of life. (in or out of a womb)
Why is removing oxygen or stopping Dialysis, or stopping the adminstration of life saving drugs different than removing a feeding tube? because it works faster? seems like if your okay with O2 removal, then isn't that a form of Euthansia? Which I know you abhore.

2.Do we need the legislature to write laws (like in Texas, signed by you know who) that are more clear?
Were the laws in effect in Florida at the time misinterpeted by ALL the courts?

This was stolen from another site..( sorry can't remember) but it asks some questions about states rights, that a really at the heart of the issue.

First, it passed a retrospective law affecting a single lawsuit -- when legislation is supposed to be different from adjudication precisely because it sweeps broadly, and is prospective.

Second, Congress required the federal courts to treat more than a decade of state court litigation, including final judgments in state court actions, as though the state court proceedings had never happened. One need not be an archconservative to wonder if such a move is an assault on constitutional federalism.

Third, Congress impinged on (and perhaps violated) the constitutionally grounded right of patients to refuse extraordinary life-saving medical treatment. That right had been established in the 1990 U.S. Supreme Court case Cruzan v. Missouri Department of Health -- which involved a patient who, like Terri Schiavo, was in a persistent vegetative state

Back to me.

As for Michael Schaivo, I heard he took the classes after the accident, but I could be wrong. but If he was after the money he could have got more elsewhere. A lot more which if he was the snake you thing he is, would have been able to buy off the Red herring control issue you bring up. (snakes can be bought) This argument is like the Iraqis hate us for our Freedom.

Finally;
What do you think the whole Gonzalez memo was about. They have found a poor soul, to get you to become a single issue voter again. It's is a strategy that has worked brilliantly for them.

You have a feeling that Democrats, want mandatory abortions, Did you know that abortions are higher now under Bush than they were under Clinton? If you think that teaching abstinence only in our schools is having a positive effect...your wrong. But teaching the truth about birth control and making it accessable, including that abortions are NOT a form of birth control. That is the best way to lower them. That's what we stand for.
Not for a puritan belief that we know does not work.
Ask any Democrat if we like abortions...we say no. The same as the Death penalty (50/50 on that one) we are not the culture of death that you make us out to be. We may be people who want to throw money around like drunken sailors to those who as you call "lack personal resposibilty" but you must walk a mile in womans (for you)shoes to really know why they are there. but to give a helping hand to those in need, I am sure you would agree is better than having the largest Military in the world.

Again I appreciate your insights and demeanor

Danw...i don't know if you are aware of this or not....but judge greer was the only one that actually reviewed the case. as is pretty standard operating procedure for most judges these days...the other judges that the MSM kept going on and on about just backed him up.....the never did a real review. did not look at evidence etc. i don't even want judges doing that with a murdering pedophile, okay? i want them to give him due process....the whole thing...before they ZAP him.......
remember that it takes both points of view once you discount the far left and far right to make a balance. and that balance is the only thing that protects any of us from people's often-less-than-pure motives. don't you think?

danw......
you make many good points.who does determine death? good question. i am not happy with the fact that we can keep people
"alive" indefinitly...when they are not really alive, just in a holding pattern.just because medicine can do it , doesn't always mean they should.if someone is on a ventilator and has machines doing everything for them, and has also a written will that states i do not want to be kept alive by life support for longer than [insert time you want here] then by all means disconnect the ventilator. but starve them to death? in what world is food and water considered "life support?" really? come on....that's just the same thing all of us need in a different form.that being said....in this case i had a hard time believing michael schiavo for several reasons. he was a respiratory therapist when terri collapsed. but he didn't give her CPR or even call 911. he called her family first. does that make any sense to you? it doesn't to me.that sounds more like someone who had just caused someone's collapse and then wanted to make sure she wasn't blabbing about it. that's just common sense.alot of things he did don't make any sense to me if you want to think of him as a doting husband. and if we all have learned anything from the past couple of years about husband's motives....it's that they are not always pure.think scott peterson. he said lacey said alot of things too. none of them true. he also didn't call the police first. guess who he called? you got it...her family. there are volumes written in psychiatry journals about controlling and abusive men. they often want the families to suffer too. it fits the pattern.then he didn't have ALL the tests done. if you are married happily, think about your wife right now and ask yourself....would i lawyer up two days after her mysterious collapse, or would i be so upset that would be the last thing on my mind...especially when no one was accusing you of anything? it doesn't add up.
and as far as caring about one disabled woman versus the 20,000 that day per day from poverty. i don't buy into that arguement because they are not mutually exclusive. in other words if you care about one you can ALSO care about the other.and i do.i am not part of the religious right.....which is just the other end of the spectrum from the "me me me far left" isn't it? they are really one and the same....they are extremists.i, personally ,have very little use for either group. i don't think they represent most of america's thinking in any way.
i am a big fan of personal responsibility....and people don't seem to be taking that very much anymore....do they?
have you thought about how many abortions would actually be needed if women used the birth control that is available? almost none.as a woman i can tell you that all of my friends that have had abortion[s] had them because they didn't take birth control and used abortion AS birth control.they weren't worried about using birth control because they thought of abortion as a safety net.
but back to terri.......do i think what happened to her was right? no. just on the legal basis her rights were violated about every way they could be. even her right to religious freedon was "owned" by her husband.the judge and the sherriff...they all had conflicts of interest. nothing was done properly when it comes to just "legally speaking"....and medically? no way....do the tests. and i'm sorry if you are going to kill someone don't do it on hearsay....from someone who stood to gain alot.

DANW....give me a chance here....I'm going to respond....I just have to finish some work first....so give me a little time okay?

Why did I know it would be you, and not the Ghost to respond?

Do I wish to waste my time, it is tough to deal with thumpers?

I will only address your last point, because that is where your main problem is.

YOU are not the one who decides for the rest of us. How many Doctors and Judges do you need?
You also have a big thing for the 10 commandments. You need to read them again..only a few are laws, and if you want to make them all laws. the Christians would have a problem with quite a few of them.

dan,
#1. Michael Schiavo is no saint. everyone I know would never treat family like he did. go find the 1993 letter the schindlers wrote to MS re: their daughter that they loved more then themselves.

#2. the legislators write the laws, judges enforce them, they are not supposed to ignore them and rule on opinion.
#3. the medical profession is also sworn to laws.
#4. when the judges and the doctors fail you the most logical thing to do is to turn to the law makers.

I'm Back;
To continue the new talking point of "culture of life".
What defines life? Medical science has moved so far ahead that they realistically could keep someone alive forever, replacing failed organs with new ones, hooking up different machines to keep certain functions going forever. So again if you want fertilized eggs in or out of a womb being concedered life fine. but what decides death? Is it heartbeat? Is it Breath? Is it gastronomic? Is it eyes open?, Is it your face in a smile position? or is it Brain function?
Again we can have medical science produce all of these...except brain function. Then who should decide what qualifies? Should it be our Medical community? should it be our judges? or should it be our elected officials who are always trying to maintain their base to get re elected? The first two seem to have no conflict of interest, while the third, is always a conflict. When is the point we should let someone die? Why not keep everyone alive as long as possible? Please let me know why the culture of life cares about one brain dead women, and not the 20,000 people a DAY that die from poverty.

Wow; CG
I have always appreciated your posts on HA, They seemed to be posted more with reasonable thought and personal convictions, rather than some who post here believe their convictions are the ones that need to be followed by everyone. we are a melting pot of different beliefs in this country and that is what makes it great.
Here are my main points on this whole fiasco.
1. Michael Schaivo has been demonized by the right for being a killer and an adulterer, and comments supposedly heard by nurses. and wanted to make a buck off this whole thing.
What credit do we give this guy for all his effort with the Schindler Family in the first FOUR YEARS of this whole thing. This was a guy who refused to listen to the Doctors and tried everything, until he finally gave into what almost all of Medical science was telling him.
Four Years is a long time to hold out. The money issue seems to be a bit of red herring as well, If he was just a greedy Ba$tard, why wouldn't he have taken the 1-11 Million dollar offers and get on with his life?...or maybe he had real morals and really really wanted her last wishes.

I have to leave now, I will post more when I get back.

But please think about what you call crazy judges and why even the most right wing ones still saw this as what the law is and not what the religous right wants, and why the Delays of this world wanted this so bad.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43688

it is happening again. Mae Magouirk in a hospice in LaGrange, Ga, Judge Greer twin. people, please write your living wills. No hospice whatsoever.

Ghost, you are correct, it must be in writing with a witness/notary. My parents went to their attorney and put it in writing because my mother was told she was terminal. Bad lungs and heart. Had my dad not had that paper for the hospital, she might have suffered, kept alive on "REAL" life support for who knows how long. Both my parents told me and my siblings what their wishes were & my dad included us all in the final decision. This definately is not something we should take lightly. We loved her with all our hearts and it was a terrible loss for our entire family. We would have done anything to save her. I sympathize deeply with the Schindlers.
So many people I talk with say "I wouldn't want to live that way" well, you may think that now but, think about Kate Adamson. Trapped inside unable to speak. To see her now is very compelling.

And Danw...how is Congress any different from the Judge, except at least Congress has checks and balances and Judges don't. This Judge[Greer] doesn't exactly have the best record in the common sense department either. And he should have allowed all the evidence in...instead of just doing what Felos wanted.....too many connections there that shouldn't be.

Danw....you are more than welcome to post here.
I see what you are saying, and I would agree about the doctors being able to decide better what should be done IF...the doctors weren't toadies paid for by her "husband",and if all the tests that could have been done had been done, and if she had actually said that that's what she wanted.....in writing with a witness.you know...legally. when someone ,especially an innocent person, is going to be put to death by a Judge I want all the T's crossed and all the I's dotted....
And I sure as heck don't think it should be done on the hearsay of a creep like Michael Schiavo.
Nor do i think someone should be dehydrated to death.....do you?I was all for the death with dignity....but then after this, no more.Not if we are going to let loons like Felos be involved.

Can I post here?

Well here I am Trolling (I guess that's what it is) But I have seen you all elsewhere as well.

So my only question is about science and government intervention. I am not going to get into a debate about abortions, I can see both points on that.

At what point did we turn back the clock, and let congress decide that doctors were no longer a reliable source for scientific determination of this poor souls case?

Many democrats are gleefully sure that the efforts to prevent Terri's death will backfire on republicans. since the democrats control so much of the media, they are able to make this message.

but I'd rather believe in a minority party with principles than a majority party without. I'd rather be on the side of life than on that of death. abortion is wrong. late term abortion is especially brutal and should be outlawed immediately. and starving a woman to death because her husband no longer wishes to be that, is wrong as well. if her wish had been to die, we should have heard that wish from him much sooner.

over time, I believe the culture of life will be more popular than the culture of "oops, I'm pregnant and don't want to be". there should be far fewer unwanted pregnancies. and there should be many more babies born and placed in loving homes. even if the will of the majority is for abortions, I will never be. if that means being outnumbered, my views won't change.

I think abortion on demand is a problem that we can fix. The 60's hippy movement created the free love culture. It lasted for decades, many unwanted pregnancies (45 million) which is why abortion HAD to be made legal I guess. Sadly, legalizing abortion was based on a lie by Jane Roe. She is speaking publically about that today as her heart is in the right place now. However her one voice will be shouted down by the usual suspects, Boxer and other feminist, for they are not going down without a bitter fight.
Notice the language "choice" very strategic wording that empowers a woman. "It's my body" I have the "RIGHT TO...."
I hope the soulless ghouls selling this BS are prepared for the day when their life is no longer perfect. do we know which one ofwill get alzheimers? Risky "choice" all based on lies, the liberals "right to lie"

There is alot of irony in here too, as one person pointed out to me. He said that "abortion is population control for liberal Democrats".Hmmmmm.....
Okay after thinking about it I am still sticking with my story that anyone in today's world [FULL of birth control that works] that gets pregnant when they didn't mean to, is an irresponsible idiot.
And then to punish/kill a baby because you were irresponsible is WRONG.
Period.
And killing a disabled person because they are in someone's way....is more than wrong.

It's frightening to think our very lives are in the hands of a mad scientist who titles himself as a bio-ethisits. Ethics? When will we see the clinics with alzheimers patients, beds in a row, drugged on morphine, waiting for the harvest. A patient in Houston needs a kidney, how much are they willing to payfor it. Will these bio-ethisist have an ebay sellers page? Of course the next of kin will authorize the sale of "tissue" samples, not knowing their organs may be stolen. Just like the desperate young girl signs the flury of pages the abortionist throws her way, signing away the sale of her murdered babys body to research, behind her parents back of course. Ethics.
What a sick world, but hey, what do I know for I am a mere pro-life peasant.

Thank you for the compliment. I hope someday to get one on a subject like "abortion and euthanasia are outlawed as crimes against humanity"
Ah...I can dream right? In the mean time I am going to keep carping about this.
There is something so sick about a society full of people like Teddy 'the murderer" Kennedy who are against the death penalty for cold blooded killers....but all for killing innocent babies and helpless people.Because it's COOL.......

Thank you, Ghost. That was really well put. It was murder, it was complicity in murder. And I too, am not yet over it all - I never will be. It was horrifying, and as the clerk said at the bakery where I stopped yesterday said: "that *that* could happen and we were all forced to watch it on TV for 13 days while they killed someone is terrible, horrible...." (she went on and on, but she was right.) Americans do know right from wrong and know murder when they see it. God forgive our land.

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